Xantia Binding Brakes

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Gaz
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Xantia Binding Brakes

Postby Gaz » Fri Jul 05, 2002 3:28 pm

Can somebody please help. I've had my xantia ('93 1.9TD hatchback)for 1 yr, straight away I replaced the warped disks with new and changed the pads..no problem since. Recently the warping sensation has come back and I've decided to change the disks straight away,no sensations anymore but..
The disks (both front) are far too hot to touch after a relaxing 35 mile (motorway and A-road) drive. I've had the calipers off, greased the sliders and pin and checked everything over..still hot. I came to work this morning without the handbrake connected to test this..still hot. Anybody had similar problems? Piston not releasing, calipers aligned properly, sliders too worn..anybody?
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hardmanm
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Postby hardmanm » Fri Jul 05, 2002 8:29 pm

I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you but have had similar problems :
My 98 2.1 TD had warped disc symptoms when I bought it 2 years ago, I then replaced the discs and pads. Everything was fine for about a week, no judder, them I noticed than one front disc was getting very hot during a run. Shortly after this the juddering came back. I am assuming that the overheating lead to the disc distorting, so I suggest you get it sorted quick or end up forking out for yet another set of discs!
Mark
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higgy
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Postby higgy » Sat Jul 06, 2002 2:42 am

A few things you could try.With the car jacked up do the wheels spin freely? (try this with the engine running as well) Is there anything stopping the brake pedal returning fully? I have seen brake hoses perish from the inside causing the brake to hold on,try opening a bleed nipple to release any pressure in the calipers.
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Dave Burns
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Postby Dave Burns » Sat Jul 06, 2002 3:54 pm

I once encountered front brake drag on a (cringe) ford, urgh sheds. Turned out that the rubber O'ring piston seal's had swolen and weren't letting the piston move back, don't know if this is a possibility with LHM system's.
Have known front pad's to be fitted to a Xantia without reference to the notch on the pad and groove in the piston, because of this the piston was bearing down on the notch on the pad causing it to bind severly in it's bore.
Dave
p.s Higgy, made any headway with your problem's.
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D.Slatford
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Postby D.Slatford » Sat Jul 06, 2002 7:55 pm

Without wanting to hijack someone elses thread again, quick question, whats the ideal grease for lubricating calipar sliders and pins? Copper grease reccomended for backs of pads to kill squeal, some people suggest use the same grease for lubrication of moving parts, others do not, if not then I'd like to know what's considered better - opinions?
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dan
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Dave Burns
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Postby Dave Burns » Sat Jul 06, 2002 9:53 pm

Copper grease should be restricted to it's intended use as a anti-sieze compound, except for use on the back of brake pad's to prevent squeeling, also on the pad slide's and contact point's between brake shoes and backplate.
Molybdenum, graphite or lithium based grease are good choice's for use on the caliper slide's.
Dave
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D.Slatford
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Postby D.Slatford » Sun Jul 07, 2002 1:04 am

Well, I've just had a look at one caliper before the rain started and I'm not pleased. Squealing brakes is the least of my worries. I couldn't even remove the retaining pin due possibly to the corrosion around it (I don't like to see bits of metal flaking away) but equally worryingly, even the wheelnuts were almost too hot to touch after a five minute run. The wheel is far from spinning freely, it takes a hell of a budge to move it in neutral. Seems like the calipers are seizing up ('95 model) which due to no job still means I'm royally f*cked now. I dread to think how much that'd cost to replace on both front wheels.
Not a happy bunny :(
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dan
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D.Slatford
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Postby D.Slatford » Sun Jul 07, 2002 10:53 pm

Can anyone give me some idea of how much it'd cost to replace both front calipers at an independant and/or authorised citroen garage? Poked and prodded it further today, I can't even get the caliper retaining pins to budge (any tips?), they're all corroded up, both discs are very hard to turn with brakes off. Further more I've noticed I'm missing part of the pad wear sensor wiring on one side, a wires been almost severed under a clip on the other, and a screw head on one of the discs has been sheared off and just left (let me guess - new hub as there's no way to remove the screw) - f**king kwikfit.
To add to my problems I've noticed the front tyres are wearing more on the outer edge - as far as I know there's no way on xantias to adjust this? What the heck do I do? Anyone remotely near keighley who could help me out? Finding it very hard to seek employment again so seem to be utterly screwed car-wise :(
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dan
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nick
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Postby nick » Sun Jul 07, 2002 11:56 pm

I don't know what a garage would charge to replace the callipers, but its not too difficult to diy.
Are you sure its not possible to free off the existing callipers though? Ive never had to do this job on a Xantia, but I have on BX's a couple of times (very similar setup), sometimes pulling back the rubber caps from the back of the calliper and spraying in some penetrating oil will help to free them. It tends to be the handbrake mechanism that actually seizes on these.
Penetrating oil will also help to free off the retaining pins to get them out, they can be replaced quite cheaply if theyre too far gone to re-use?
I frequently remove the pad wear sensor wiring on my own cars anyway, its no substitute for examining the state of the pads from time to time.
The best way to remove a sheared off disc retaining screw is usually to drill it out using a drill of slightly smaller diameter than the screw. The wheel studs will hold the disc in place, so replacing the screws is not essential.
Uneven tyre wear is frequently caused by the tracking needing adjustment, its well worth having this checked before you assume its anything more serious.
Nick
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D.Slatford
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Postby D.Slatford » Mon Jul 08, 2002 12:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I don't know what a garage would charge to replace the callipers, but its not too difficult to diy.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
It doesn't look too tricky, but I'm just afraid of getting into a situation where something borks and I'm stuck. Having to borrow a mill carpark down the road as the only place I can work is a risk too. Another question (I seem to be full of them!) is how much might a caliper reconditioning kit cost, what's included and how time consuming is it to recondition?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Penetrating oil will also help to free off the retaining pins to get them out, they can be replaced quite cheaply if theyre too far gone to re-use?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I'd thought of this, I'll try and acquire some new pins + clips tomorrow - hopefully /they/ shouldn't cost much. I just hope I don't bugger the rest of the caliper up hammering out the old ones - I hate hitting that stuff too hard..
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Uneven tyre wear is frequently caused by the tracking needing adjustment, its well worth having this checked before you assume its anything more serious.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Hope so - I'm stressed up to the eyeballs with it all now already :/ I *cannot* be without a car here or I'd hardly ever leave this tiny village, but nor do I want premature wear by friction.
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dan
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Dave Burns
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Postby Dave Burns » Mon Jul 08, 2002 12:57 am

The retaining pin (not the "R" clip) is still shiny on my car, but it is a tight fit and doesn't just pull out anyhow, it has to be punched out, and with some vigour for it's size and good condition.
Agree with Nick, only option to get broken screw out is to drill it, it's a 6mm x 1mm screw so the maximum drill size to use is 5mm and only then if you can get it bang in the centre, start with 3mm and then 4mm, often the drill will grab and take the screw out the other side.
Even with the tracking correct I find I need a fair bit higher tyre pressure than specified, or I to suffer outer edge wear on the front's.
Dave
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Gaz
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Postby Gaz » Mon Jul 08, 2002 3:06 pm

Thanks for the replies, I've serviced all the moving parts and tried the system again. I think I can now see the problem. On the floor, looking at the car from the front with the wheel off, the caliper moves inwards(to the middle of the car) about 2-3mm to clamp the brakes on. However when the brakes are released, the top of the caliper (slider) moves back out 2 mm but the bottom of the caliper (cheap tacky idea) only moves approx 1mm because of the friction on the pin. The pin is polished, straight and copper-eased yet it still only moves 1mm due to the upward force caused by the pad anti-rattle plates. I've placed a spring around the pin to help the bottom of the caliper move back out with partial results. (no binding, I can roll the car back and too with my little finger on the front tyre) but there is still a very high pitched, very quiet intermittent brake noise causing the disks to get very hot. I will look again at making something to help the caliper move back out without comprimising the caliper motion / safety. Gaz
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D.Slatford
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Postby D.Slatford » Tue Jul 09, 2002 3:39 am

I seem to be having similar issues to you Gaz. Spent ten quid on a couple of new pins and anti-rattle plates today - and that was the cheap kit, 25 quid for the citroen branded ones!! One caliper is now working better, wheel spins quite freely. The other is still binding, wheel spins but needs a bit of effort, although there's no detectable free play in the calipers on either side. One or both sides are still squealing too despite the copper grease on backs of pads. Not pleased, looks like I need at least one new caliper, possibly new pads and discs (could be slight warpage on one) - the pisser is I'm still paying back kwikfit for the current ones.
While I'm at it, the front spheres seem harder than they ought to be (a mechanic picked up on this not long ago too) - thats reasonably new GS&F spheres, don't appear to be genuine citroen ones. A lower suspension arm bush is perishing, and it's due a 70,000 mile service. Oh, and although the back wheels spin very freely, one or both (can't remember) makes a bit of a grating noise while the front ones spin silently. I don't like that either. Looks like I'm gonna need a few hundred quid spare to put everything right :(
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dan
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johnaughland
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Postby johnaughland » Wed Oct 09, 2002 12:33 am

I have a bx with brake bind but I learned something about my bike brakes which may be of some use.
I have been advised by a v.good bike mechanic that the binding is due to a build up of crystalysed crud under the brake caliper seals i.e. in their groove. This effectively makes the seals smaller in diameter.
I dunno how car brakes work as I'm a biker mainly, but it may be that.
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